Old Remington side by side
Old Remington side by side
I am trying to get information about my old Remington side by side double barrel. I found a Pat. number of Oct. 30th 1894 and a serial number in the 130XXX range. Can anyone out there help me with anything else about my grandfather's old favorite? Thanks.
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Re: Old Remington side by side
Remington Hammerless Doubles -- Two patents were issued on the same day, October 30, 1894. No. 528,507 pertaining to the milling of the frame was granted to R. C. Fay of Ilion, New York, assignor to the Remington Arms Company of same place; and No. 528,508 pertaining to the automatic ejectors, to R.C. Fay and G.E. Humphreys of Ilion, New York, assignor to the Remington Arms Company of same place.
If the gun is absolutely plain with no engraving, just "Remington Arms Co." stamped on the side of the frame it is an A-grade if a Model 1894. Model 1894 serial numbers were in the 100,000 range and often preceded by a P a Remington stock letter. Also perfectly plain was the lower priced Model 1900 with serial numbers in the 300,000 range, and often a stock letter of Q. These were also known as the K-grade. A gun in the 130xxx range would be of about 1904 vintage.
A Model 1894 B-grade had just a bit of borderline engraving. As the grades went up C-, D-, and E-grade the engraving became more extensive, the stock wood and checkering finer, and the overall workmanship better. There is normally a grade letter stamped on the left side watertable, or on "bridge-frame guns" (usually 103,500 and lower serial numbers) on the bridge. Also, if you remove the trigger guard, the grade letter is often stamped in the wood after the serial number.
If a Remington Model 1894 is fitted with automatic ejectors the written grade designation has a letter E added to it and if it has Remington Steel barrels an R or Ordnance Steel Barrels an O -- AE-grade (A-grade with ejectors and the regular Damascus barrels), AER-grade (A-grade with ejectors and Remington Steel barrels), BO-grade (B-grade with Ordnance Steel barrels) or CEO-grade (C-grade with ejectors and Ordnance Steel barrels). I’ve never seen these extra letters stamped on the gun’s watertable. In the Model 1900s things are reversed. Remington must have considered their Remington Steel barrels standard and appended a D if the gun was equipped with 2-blade Damascus barrels -- KD-grade or KED-grade. "Ordnance Steel" is normally stamped on the top of the barrels on AO-/AEO- and BO-/BEO-Grade Remington doubles and engraved on higher grades.
You need to check out Charles G. Semmer's book "Remington Double Shotguns." It is available from the author 7885 Cyd Drive, Denver, CO 80221, for $60 plus $5 shipping and handling. It is invaluable if you are going to shoot, invest, collect or play in the Remington double gun field. Remington supplied a number of different pattern Damascus barrels on these old doubles. A picture of their salesman’s sample of the various styles of Damascus available is shown on page 275 of Semmer's book.
Remington Arms Co. stamped the actual pellet counts of their test patterns on the rear barrel lug of their Model 1889 hammer doubles and their Model 1894 and 1900 hammerless doubles. If the number is three digits, that is the count, if the number is two digits a leading 3 is implied. From surviving hang-tags we know the standard load they used to target 12-gauge guns was 1 1/4 ounces of #8 going 511 pellets to the load. My 12-gauge KE-Grade Model 1900 is stamped 33 on the left and 24 on the right. That would be 333/511 = 65% left and 324/511 = 64% right, or about improved modified in both barrels. The chokes measure .027" in both barrels of that gun.
By the end of the first decade of the 20th Century, Remington saw that the future laid with their John M. Browning designed Remington Autoloading Gun (later known as the Model 11) and their John D. Pedersen designed Remington Repeating Shotgun (later known as the Model 10). So, they concluded a deal with Norvell-Shapleigh Hardware Co. of StLouis, for their entire inventory of break-action shotguns in inventory and in process, on February 3, 1910. There must have been a lot of guns involved, because the records show 3206 Model 1894s, and 16435 Model 1900s shipped in 1910. The 1909 Remington Arms Co. catalogue was the last one to include the doubles, and there was a version of the 1909 catalogue that only had the Remington Autoloading Shotgun, the Remington Repeating Shotgun, and the Autoloading Repeating Rifle.
If the gun is absolutely plain with no engraving, just "Remington Arms Co." stamped on the side of the frame it is an A-grade if a Model 1894. Model 1894 serial numbers were in the 100,000 range and often preceded by a P a Remington stock letter. Also perfectly plain was the lower priced Model 1900 with serial numbers in the 300,000 range, and often a stock letter of Q. These were also known as the K-grade. A gun in the 130xxx range would be of about 1904 vintage.
A Model 1894 B-grade had just a bit of borderline engraving. As the grades went up C-, D-, and E-grade the engraving became more extensive, the stock wood and checkering finer, and the overall workmanship better. There is normally a grade letter stamped on the left side watertable, or on "bridge-frame guns" (usually 103,500 and lower serial numbers) on the bridge. Also, if you remove the trigger guard, the grade letter is often stamped in the wood after the serial number.
If a Remington Model 1894 is fitted with automatic ejectors the written grade designation has a letter E added to it and if it has Remington Steel barrels an R or Ordnance Steel Barrels an O -- AE-grade (A-grade with ejectors and the regular Damascus barrels), AER-grade (A-grade with ejectors and Remington Steel barrels), BO-grade (B-grade with Ordnance Steel barrels) or CEO-grade (C-grade with ejectors and Ordnance Steel barrels). I’ve never seen these extra letters stamped on the gun’s watertable. In the Model 1900s things are reversed. Remington must have considered their Remington Steel barrels standard and appended a D if the gun was equipped with 2-blade Damascus barrels -- KD-grade or KED-grade. "Ordnance Steel" is normally stamped on the top of the barrels on AO-/AEO- and BO-/BEO-Grade Remington doubles and engraved on higher grades.
You need to check out Charles G. Semmer's book "Remington Double Shotguns." It is available from the author 7885 Cyd Drive, Denver, CO 80221, for $60 plus $5 shipping and handling. It is invaluable if you are going to shoot, invest, collect or play in the Remington double gun field. Remington supplied a number of different pattern Damascus barrels on these old doubles. A picture of their salesman’s sample of the various styles of Damascus available is shown on page 275 of Semmer's book.
Remington Arms Co. stamped the actual pellet counts of their test patterns on the rear barrel lug of their Model 1889 hammer doubles and their Model 1894 and 1900 hammerless doubles. If the number is three digits, that is the count, if the number is two digits a leading 3 is implied. From surviving hang-tags we know the standard load they used to target 12-gauge guns was 1 1/4 ounces of #8 going 511 pellets to the load. My 12-gauge KE-Grade Model 1900 is stamped 33 on the left and 24 on the right. That would be 333/511 = 65% left and 324/511 = 64% right, or about improved modified in both barrels. The chokes measure .027" in both barrels of that gun.
By the end of the first decade of the 20th Century, Remington saw that the future laid with their John M. Browning designed Remington Autoloading Gun (later known as the Model 11) and their John D. Pedersen designed Remington Repeating Shotgun (later known as the Model 10). So, they concluded a deal with Norvell-Shapleigh Hardware Co. of StLouis, for their entire inventory of break-action shotguns in inventory and in process, on February 3, 1910. There must have been a lot of guns involved, because the records show 3206 Model 1894s, and 16435 Model 1900s shipped in 1910. The 1909 Remington Arms Co. catalogue was the last one to include the doubles, and there was a version of the 1909 catalogue that only had the Remington Autoloading Shotgun, the Remington Repeating Shotgun, and the Autoloading Repeating Rifle.
Re: Old Remington side by side
Hi and thanks so much for your reply. I found the Remngton Arms info, no letters on the top of the barrels but did on the bottom. The right barrel has a letter "A" with 3 hash marks, a little further back is a letter "P", a laying down cross and an anchor. The left has the letter "A". The area where the foregrip locks on has an "S" then a space and then 2 more "S"s on the right side of the barrels and a "H"/"M" on the left. On the barrel lock mechanisim are an "A" and a 25 and 35. Where the barreks locks down in are the numbers 30672. The trigger guard has the serial number and the Pat date and the serial number is on the barrel carrage and also on the fore grip with the the Pat date. It has the ejector and both barrels have a fancy design but no place else and there is no checkering on the stock. I don't think I missed any other markings or numbers? Does that help figure out exactly what vintage this double barrel is. My grandfather used to hunt with it all the time as did my father and did I with no misshaps. I don't want to shoot it anymore if it has Damacus barrels so hope it does not? Thanks again for you help and will wait to hear more info if you have any. Have a GREAT DAY, Larry
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Re: Old Remington side by side
Sounds like you have an AE-Grade Remington Hammerless Double. If there is a pattern to them the barrels are most certainly Damascus. Here are the markings on the bottom of the barrels of my Father's 1896 vintage AE-Grade --
What these numbers, letters and hash marks on the bottom of the barrel tubes mean will likely never be discovered. Here are the markings on my guns --
1906 12-gauge KE-Grade has /// K E Y
1907 12-gauge KE-Grade has L K E Y
1909 16-gauge KE-Grade has X K E A1
1896 12-gauge AE-Grade has P A
1906 12-gauge FE Trap has /// F E G 13
1895 12-gauge BE-Grade has B J and a poorly struck E or an F
1907 CEO-Grade 12-gauge has /// M
1905 DEO-Grade 16-gauge has X O
In some cases you can get the grade as in the KE and FE. My BE-Grade has Chain Damascus barrels, and on the Remington Damascus salesman sample the Chain Damascus is labeled CHAIN J. So, B for the grade, J for the barrel material and E for ejectors?!? Hmmm....
What these numbers, letters and hash marks on the bottom of the barrel tubes mean will likely never be discovered. Here are the markings on my guns --
1906 12-gauge KE-Grade has /// K E Y
1907 12-gauge KE-Grade has L K E Y
1909 16-gauge KE-Grade has X K E A1
1896 12-gauge AE-Grade has P A
1906 12-gauge FE Trap has /// F E G 13
1895 12-gauge BE-Grade has B J and a poorly struck E or an F
1907 CEO-Grade 12-gauge has /// M
1905 DEO-Grade 16-gauge has X O
In some cases you can get the grade as in the KE and FE. My BE-Grade has Chain Damascus barrels, and on the Remington Damascus salesman sample the Chain Damascus is labeled CHAIN J. So, B for the grade, J for the barrel material and E for ejectors?!? Hmmm....