Carl Ennis engraved Model 141

[lowgun]

Is anyone doing research on early engraved Model 141 rifles or custom shop rifles in general? 62,472 is the serial number of my Ennis engraved Model 141E. I assume it is an E Grade because it does not have quite the engraving coverage of a normal F Grade but has the three game scenes. Is there a Remington catalog that shows the 141E? wilmrph@verizon.net Thanks for any help. Bill Murphy

[35Rem]

I'm not, but I love my model 141 and would LOVE to see some pictures of yours. I would think Engraved Model 141's are Extremely Rare.

Please post or send pics. Please....

[lowgun]

I don't have the patience to post pictures, but it is a nice gun with bear, deer, and sheep scenes and outrageous American Walnut stock and forearm, the forearm grooved, the first grooved forearm I've seen on a graded 141. I notice my profile does not include the fact that I live in MD. Anyone who wants to examine it can see it at the Vintagers in the PGCA tent. It is signed by Ennis, a relatively unpraised Remington engraver who may be the best. An Ennis sample plate discovered by the RSA research team a few years ago was just out of this world.

[Gene Myszkowski]

Hi Bill,

I am working on an article for the RSA Journal covering the post WWII engravers and their work. I do have material on Carleton "Carl" Ennis. He retired from Remington in 1978 and passed away Jan. 16, 1989. He was the R & D engraver from the 1960s on and did many of the production improvements considered by the Operations Committee. He also engraved many of the retirement guns presented to Remington executives. He was known for engraving dogs with "attitude".

I am fortunate to have a "F" grade Model 740 engraved and signed by Ennis. Is your 141 signed by Ennis? I do have a digital copy of a 1950 "Remington Fancy Grade Guns" catalog which has a line drawing of a "F" grade 141.

Gene Myszkowski

[lowgun]

Yes, Gene, it has the E that is reputedly an Ennis signature (am I correct about that?). It is field used and shows no signs of fakery. The grooved forend of very high grade American walnut is nothing off of anyone's standard grade 141. A fake would obviously not have a grooved forend. It is a very unusual touch. I'm not having a lot of luck finding Remington manufacture date codes on the barrel but, as you suggest, it is probably postwar. What does the serial number indicate for date of manufacture? Thanks for the Ennis picture. I don't have one. By the way, I don't have a copy of the F Grade 141 catalog picture. I would appreciate a scan of it by email. Thanks. Bill Murphy

[lowgun]

Gene, in the absense of a Remington letter code on the barrel breech of my 141, would the 49 stamped on the side of the trigger guard boss mean a 1949 date of manufacture? Bill Murphy

[Gene Myszkowski]

Bill,

Have sent a picture of the Ennis signature on my 740 and the pictures of the 121"D" grade and 141 "F" grade from the 1950 Fancy Grade Catalog. Not sure what the "49" on the side of the trigger guard means.

The first "postwar" price list we found in the Remington Archives is dated 1/23/1945 while "D", "E" and "F" grades are listed there is a note that only standard grade arms would be produced. It is of interest that by this date the postwas conversion was being planned as the production of the 1903A3 finished.

The next price list was published 10/8/1946 and all 3 fancy gun grades were offered except for the "E" grade in the 141. The "F" grade 141 cost $478.85. By 1950 the "E" grade was dropped from the catalog for all firearms and the 141 "F" grade cost $530.00 There was a 10% increase in Septemebr 13,1950 and a further 5% increase on December 18,1950. The December price list dropped the Models 81 and 141 from the Fancy Grade Guns catalog.

Gene

[lowgun]

I realize there is a large variation in quality and effort in F Grade guns over the years, but there is a vast difference between my gun and the Model 141 F Grade picture you sent me. An example of the difference in F Grades is an early catalog picture of an outrageous Model 10F in contrast to my Sousa 10F which is much more conservative, probably because it is a comp gun given to Sousa by Remington. Parker Brothers comped many graded guns in the early days and some of them are quite plain compared to other guns of identical grade that were ordered and paid for by customers. Regardless of these facts, I am still of the opinion that my gun is an Expert (E) Grade although not marked as such.

[shot1too]

Bill
There were changes make in the Remington system of engraving during the life of the 141. An expample is the "C" grade changing to a "B" grade; however the announcement by Remington to the Jobbers did not list an "E" grade. I am fairly confident that no "E" grades were ever made in the 141. I don't know if your rifle is a "F" grade or not. There is a possibility that it was a special order. That would be an answer to the configuration of the forearm. Is the word "GAMEMASTER" on the side of the receiver? From your description I have no doubt it is Remington engraved. Do you have any history?

Loren

PS: This is an invitation for someone out there to prove me wrong about the existence of an "E" grade 141.

[lowgun]

Loren, no "Gamemaster" marking. Nor do I agree that this gun could be an F Grade unless it is a comp gun or some other less than maximum effort example. Too many areas not covered by engraving. It is not a D either. It has three game scenes. It is an E for sure, in my opinion, even if it is the only one.

[shot1too]

Bill
I've been around Remington long enough to know that noting is written in stone. The only description on an "E" grade 14 I have ever found is in the 1913-14 catalog. There it says the following: "Specifications- Same as the No. 14C, but with stock and fore-arm elaborately checkered. Silver name plate inlaid in the stock. The receiver and barrel are finished with beaitiful deep scroll hand engraving with a game panel on left side of receiver. All working parts are hand polished." After this catalog the "E" is not mentioned again in the 14 line.

Even though things seem to have changed with the engaving by the time your rifle was done, the factory stayed with the same type of coverage by grade. This leads me to speculate that your rifle may have been made just for a special purpose, person or event. Is you rifle an "E" grade? As I said before, never say never when talking about Remingtons, but the description you have given doesn't match the one from 1913. The fact that your gun exists is an exciting event. It may remain a mystery until more information can be found.

[lowgun]

I agree with you. My wish to pin the gun down to a specific grade is probably unfounded. In the absense of a grade marking, I will have to assume it is a gun engraved for a special purpose. Thanks for helping with my research. Bill Murphy

[lowgun]

I will put my last statement about grade determination of my gun on hold after reading the "other thread" about E Grade 141s. My gun is not marked by grade, but is similar in coverage and style to the wonderful E Grade pictured on the later thread. Bill Murphy

[remjim]

I have a REM Mod. 141-D. s/n 68,5xx, production code AUU (MAR 1949)
.35REM, Bottom of receiver engraved MOD 141 *D* over engravrd s/n.
Checkered buttstock, with PG and PG cap, checkered beaver tailed forearm without groves.
Here's something unusual; engraved into the left side of barrel just above the barrel code is a 5/32 inch Capital letter F in a horizontal position, points down, on it's side.
Old price list shows D grade cost $251.80 in 1948.
Anyone have any info on the lazy "F"?

[lowgun]

My supposedly E Grade also has the laid down "F" but it does not have a visible date code. Maybe it is under the slide mechanism, I don't know.