7mm Roller

Topics related to Pre - 1898 Remington Rifles
Alpo
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Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:02 pm

7mm Roller

Post by Alpo »

I read, somewhere, that the 7x57 Rollers were not the exact same cartridge that Herr Mauser chambered his bolt guns in. Does anyone know if that's true? I have no interest in shooting factory ammo in mine. I plan on Lee's 130 grain cast bullet. Just want to be sure that my dies and brass will work.
I always take precautions.
John Boy
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Location: New Jersey

Re: 7mm Roller

Post by John Boy »

Does anyone know if that's true?
Alpo - it's true. 7mm Mauser cartridges were made for bolt action rifles of which a rolling block is not. Remington cut the 7mm chambers 0.0065 to 0.0131 longer.

If one plans to buy 7mm Mauser factory loaded ammunition, the bullets should be pulled - powder removed and reloaded because the round's pressure will be too high.
Suggested reload is:
160 to 175gr cast or jacket bullet
37.0gr of IMR 4064 and don't reload the rounds to maximum charge
Source of Loading Data: George Layman, author, The Military Remington Rolling Block Rifle
Regards
John
Alpo
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Re: 7mm Roller

Post by Alpo »

So, is the chamber just too long - more leade than is needed? Or is the shoulder set further forward? Or what exactly is too long?
I always take precautions.
John Boy
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Location: New Jersey

Re: 7mm Roller

Post by John Boy »

MODERN 7mm rounds are too hot for original 7mm rifles and longer than chamber case cuts of the era. When you reload them as suggested, they will fireform to the chamber. 0.0065 to 0.0131 longer case cut in the chamber will not impair using modern cases or negate accuracy.
Regards
John
tjack
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Re: 7mm Roller

Post by tjack »

Actually, the opposite is true. The 7mm Mauser cartridge dates from 1892. When SAMMI standardized the cartridge in the 20th century they settled on a case length that was slightly shorter than the original 7mm cartridge that rolling blocks are chambered for. This results in a modern 7mm Mauser cartridge having excessive head space (being too short) in the rolling block chamber. The distance from the base of the case to the start of the shoulder is shorter. It is difficult to fire form rimless cases as there is nothing holding the base of the case against the breech block. A successful way to fire form 7mm cases for the rolling block is to 1st expand the case mouth of an unprimed case with a .30 cal expander (I use a .30-06 die). LUBE the inside of the neck. Next, using a 7mm Mauser sizer die, screw it down until it only slightly sizes the neck. Try to chamber the case. In small increments, repeat above until the case will chamber, the breech block will close AND the hammer can be lowered to where it would strike the primer. It is best if there is very slight resistance of the face of the hammer against the breech block. You have now removed all excessive head space. Lock your 7mm die at this location and repeat the process for all cases you plan on shooting thru this rifle. Clean cases and reload using the starting load listed in modern reloading manuals. After firing it will be necessary to trim your cases to uniform case mouths. Also, I have found that most of my 7mm Rolling Blocks have chamber throats that have been eroded due to repeated firing from corrosive primers. This causes the case mouth to fairly greatly expand on firing. It will be necessary to anneal case necks periodically (I do mine after every 2nd shooting). If you don't anneal you will get case mouth splits after several firings due to the brass getting brittle. I have used bullets from 140-175gr; what ever the cheapest bullets I can find when I need more (Camp Perry is not in the picture). I seat bullets out so that they can get closer to the rifling. I've settled on seating the bullet so the base is approx. 1/2 way down the neck. So I neck size cases during reloading so that I do not size any farther than bullets are seated.
The 7mm Rolling Blocks are surprisingly accurate even with very worn bores.
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brian1
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Location: NH

7x57 Mauser & Rolling Block headspace

Post by brian1 »

Rather than start a new thread with my question, I'd like to resurrect this old thread because of all the good related info it has in it. I just bought a Rolling Block in 7mm. The gun shop I bought it from told me it was a strong action and it was good to go, and they sold me a box of Winchester Super-X 7x57 Mauser to go with the rifle. Fortunately, I was looking up something else online about the rifle, and came across this thread before shooting it.

As I understand the other posts in this thread, the round headspaces on the shoulder; is that correct? If so, then if the shoulder is too close to the case head for my chamber, then it seems to me that the case would sit recessed in the chamber. Am I still correct? And if both of those thoughts are true, would it then be safe to say that, if a round drops in nicely and the face of the case head is nice and flush with the rear face of the barrel, then the headspace must be OK?

Then, further to that, I understand that, headspace issues aside, I should not fire the new Winchester ammo anyway, because it will generate too much pressure, and so I then need to just load up some milder rounds. Am I still correct?

I also noted that some 7mm brass I have that was fired in Mauser actions, and has not been resized yet, still drops right into the chamber, so it seems to me that, whatever I load up for it, I should just neck-size only, and dedicate all that (slightly oversize) ammo to just this gun. Would you agree?

And finally, I see this thread is in the "pre-1899" section. I really don't know if my rifle is pre- or post- 1899. I posted info about it in a thread in the "post-1899" section, but that post hasn't gotten any responses yet. Is there a difference in this whole headspace issue (and pressure issue) if the rifle is 20th century?
marlinman93
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Re: 7mm Roller

Post by marlinman93 »

You're correct on most of what you asked, and especially the part about not shooting that newer ammo!
But headspace isn't all that simple on a Rolling Block. A case may drop right in, but still have excess headspace. If you chambered a dummy cartridge and then closed the breech block, and lower the hammer, you can check headspace. Simply pull the breechblock back while leaving the hammer down, and see how much gap there is between the cartridge and the breechblock face.
Some use a feeler gauge to check, and that works OK. It should not accept over .003" feeler gauge thickness between cartridge and breechblock face. Another way to check is putting tape on the back of a case and cut it to size. You can measure the tape thickness with a micrometer, and then keep adding layers until the breechblock wont close and allow the hammer to drop. If each tape layer is say .001" and 3 of them worked, but 4 layers didn't, then it's OK. If layers of tape added up to over .003" and still allowed the breechblock to close, and hammer to drop; then it's got excess headspace.
I have the bottom of the breechblock welded to build it up where it contacts the hammer interference fit. Then I stone it down until the hammer just clears. I do this to not just set headspace, but before rebarreling so the breechblock is perpendicular to the bore. If it's not perpendicular to the bore the case head will bend on firing, and will ruin the case for future reloading. Just finished one and had to build up quite a bit as it had .010" clearance, and was probably 3-4 degrees out of square to the bore. It's getting a new Green Mountain .40-65 barrel, so needed squaring up before barreling.
dieNusse1
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Re: 7mm Roller

Post by dieNusse1 »

With reference to checking headspace I've used a "tool" that seems to works well. Auto repair stores sell thin plastic strips designed to determine bearing and other clearances. It works as follows: Place strip between surfaces and torque to required tension > disassemble and remove strip > mic the strip. As the plastic is designed to compress and hold its' shape it's a quick and accurate method.
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brian1
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Re: 7mm Roller

Post by brian1 »

I went out this morning and got some Plasti-Gauge. I I measure about 4.5 to 5 thousandths headspace, measuring as suggested, using both fired brass and new commercial ammo. Plus I got George Layman's book, which was very helpful in identifying exactly what model I have. It's a Model 1902.

I thought perhaps I could decrease headspace by moving the shoulder forward a bit, so I took a 30-06 case and ran it (carefully & slowly) through my 7mm die. I ended up with a weird looking, very long neck 7mm case with the shoulder moved forward about 1/16". However, the case was about 1/4" too long to go into the chamber, so it's apparently headspacing on the case mouth, rather than the shoulder, as I'd thought it did. I haven't yet tried trimming the case neck back to get the headspace I am seeking.

Unfortunately George's book didn't go into much detail about it or the alternatives, but he explicitly made a highlighted point of saying the 7mm rifles should not be shot at all (page 31). So, while it seems like a nice rifle in great original shape, I think I need to take it back to the gunshop for a refund. I guess the only other option would be to send it out for rechambering/reboring in a rimmed caliber. Your thoughts on that? The rimmed calibers don't have the headspace issue? I'm looking at a couple older ones in 43 Spanish now.
marlinman93
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Re: 7mm Roller

Post by marlinman93 »

Your use of a .30-06 case wont tell you it's spacing on the case mouth, as the .30-06 case is so much longer than a 7x57 case that it will stop before it is fully chambered, and not tell you anything.
Either do a chamber cast, or take some length off the case neck gradually until the case chambers, and you can check headspace again.
Once you've got a few cases made that chamber, and give correct headspace, then you can fire form them and check to see if the shoulder moves forward also. Another check to do is checking to see the rim has not deflected during forming, and is not true to the case body any longer. By using a straight edge, and a truly flat surface you can sit the cases base down, and put a straight edge along one side. Then turn the case 360 degrees and check to see if the gap between straight edge and case is equal all around. If it's not, then your breechblock is not perpendicular to the bore, and every case you fire will be deformed and no good for reloading.
stanforth
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Re: 7mm Roller

Post by stanforth »

I regularly use a 1902 7mm Rolling Block rifle. At first I was put off by Georges Book. This is what I do. I only use handloads and I start by fire forming new cases by using low loads. Then I load using Hogdon's starting loads.
I usually shoot this gun at 100, 200 and 300 yards and these loads work well at these distances.

One tip. I don't use Winchester cases as the primer pockets seem weak and I have had 'primer set back' with these but not with other brands.

Good luck and enjoy a fine rifle.
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brian1
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Re: 7mm Roller

Post by brian1 »

Thanks for the tips. I've got my neck length set now, and I've got cases that will chamber and the block will close just enough to let the hammer fall. My block may well not be perpendicular at this point. I will check it as marlinman93 suggested. Also, as stanforth says, I may just forget trying to make cases from 30-06 and fire form from 7mm.
VWMAN
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Re: 7mm Roller

Post by VWMAN »

I've read the discussions about the 7 mm Mauser rollers for a number of years and finally picked one up last year, it's a Mexican model and in pretty good shape although the bore does have some wear to it, showing it's been fired a bit. When I checked the headspace I was surprised it was correct for brand new current production Remington cases. I agree with many of the other posting's that reloading low pressure loads is a prudent idea and I shoot the same load in the Mexican as I do the Chilean model 1895, a 175 Gr. bullet duplicating the original load used in the 1895's.
Having said that, I've had a French rolling block in 8 m/m Lebel for 30 years or more and I've shot plenty of the Remington factory loads in it over the years with no problems of any sort. And I've reloaded the cases numerous time duplicating the Remington factory load and never had any case separations or other problems. I'm aware of the French Balle N load and certainly wouldn't shoot that in a roller. But that's a mote point anyway as most French surplus ammo is junk today. My son and I enjoy the rollers quite a bit and we both have Danish rollers, mine the long chamber, his the shorter one.
VWMAN.
marlinman93
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Re: 7mm Roller

Post by marlinman93 »

The issues usually pop up when headspace begins to get out of spec. With proper headspace they should shoot fine. I've seen some that I could grab the breech block with the hammer down and move it open quite a ways! I've also seen some that when fired the empties wouldn't chamber again if they weren't indexed the exact same way they were when fired. The heads were actually slightly bent from the block being pushed back, and the angle to the face being too great.
Getting the breech blocks square to the bore is something I always do first, prior to any rebuild, or restoration.
jon_norstog
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Re: 7mm Roller

Post by jon_norstog »

This is a very interesting thread! I have a Mexican roller that I bought mail order when I was 15. You could order one with an "extra good bore" for a few dollars extra so I did that. Like a fool I butchered it into a "sporter" but that's what everyone did back then. It has always been an accurate gun, but I did get case stretch and limited brass life.

I have to say I shot some pretty strong loads in that rifle, including the VERY accurate, post-war FN military loads. I had to sometimes hit the block with a stick to get it to open! After reading all this I probably will count myself lucky and not do that again.

I do think the #5 action would make a pretty decent black powder gun, and it's got a way better trigger than the #1.

jn
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