M-1867 - #36608 - more info?

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wendelboe
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M-1867 - #36608 - more info?

Post by wendelboe »

Hi, I am currently researching for a book and a TV-documentary on the Danish/US couple Dr. Mogens and Eline Uhrenholt, who in 1916 set out as some of the first missionairies in the Danish Sudan Mission. They both died in Africa after only few years of serving the mission.

Read at short summary in English at my research platform http://www.smartcms.dk/user/uhrenholt/v ... ummary.htm.

In my searching for sources and material, relatives of Dr. Mogens Uhrenholt has introduced me to his rifle.

Image
At http://www.smartcms.dk/user/uhrenholt/v ... gevaer.htm you can see more pictures of the rifle.


It is in a bad state, but as far as I can see it is a Remington model M-1867, numbered 36608.
Cal. .45.

At http://www.smartcms.dk/user/uhrenholt/v ... gevaer.htm you can see several pictures of the rifle.

I just wonder, if some real experts could tell me more about this specific rifle. When was it made? Purpose? Purchasers? Etc. Etc.

Thank you in advance for your kind help.


Hans Wendelboe Bøcher
Hirtshals, Denmark, Europe
hans@wendelboe.dk
tjack
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Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2006 6:15 pm

Re: M-1867 - #36608 - more info?

Post by tjack »

Hans,
Greetings from the USA! Your rifle is the Danish Model 1867 Rolling Block Rifle. Remington made 20,000 for Denmark in early 1867. They made another 10,000 rifles and 1,800 cavalry carbines later in 1867. In 1868 Remington made another 10,000 rifles for Denmark. If your rifle was made by Remington it will have Remington information on the top of the tang. Denmark made approximately 31,500 rifles and 7,000 carbines under license from Remington. Danish made rifles and carbines are also marked on the top tang with the Copenhagen arsenal and the date of manufacture. The rear sight on your rifle indicates it was one of the earlier rifles. If you can locate a copy of the 1984 yearbook from the Danish Arms and Armour Society you will find all the information you will ever want to know about your rifle. I only have a copy of the English summary and the pertinent photographs.
Good luck!

Tom Jackson
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wendelboe
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Re: M-1867 - #36608 - more info?

Post by wendelboe »

Thank you!
I have now received a full copy of the mentioned book. It is interesting; however, I am still confused about manufactoring data on this specific rifle. From the data in the book and at http://www.vaabenhistoriskselskab.dk/ar ... editid1=84 I cannot tell whether it actually is produced in Ilion, USA or here in Denmark. I hope, that there might be a product key# overview somewhere, which can tell me if rifle #36608 is American or Danish made.

Thank you once again,

Hans Wendelboe Bøcher
Denmark
tjack
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Re: M-1867 - #36608 - more info?

Post by tjack »

Hans,
If your rifle was made by Remington it will have on the top tang (metal extension behind the hammer) the following: "Remingtons Ilion N.Y. U.S.A." over the patent information. Also, if made by Remington, the left side of the receiver, near the screw that holds in the extractor, will be stamped with a crown.
If your rifle is Danish it will be marked on the top tang: KJOBENHAVENS TOIHUUS. and the year of manufacture. The left side of the receiver will have stamped, under the screw that holds the extractor, a crown over the royal cypher of King Christian IX. If your tang markings can not be read then the receiver stamps will indicate who made the rifle. I have both a rifle and a carbine made by Remington and neither have the royal cypher on the receiver.
Hope this helps!
Tom
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wendelboe
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Re: M-1867 - #36608 - more info?

Post by wendelboe »

Thank you, Tom.
But unfortunately there are no more signs of the ones you mentioned to be found, than the number 36608. No crowns, no cypher or patent number. It is apparently in bad shape.

At http://www.smartcms.dk/user/uhrenholt/v ... gevaer.htm you can still find the pictures of it. Including details (the few there are to see!).

But what do you reckon. Is it actually an M-1867 riffle?

Thanks, once again.

Hans
tjack
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Re: M-1867 - #36608 - more info?

Post by tjack »

Hans,
It is definitely a M1867 Danish Rolling Block. What there is left of the rear sight is either the original issue sight or the 1883 sight that was substituted when the Danish military determined that the 11.7mm cartridge was capable of good accuracy past what the original sight allowed. The next sight change came in 1896 when the rifle was converted to center fire (M1867/96). The brass disk on the butt stock originally had the military unit that it was issued to stamped on it. The wood looks like it may have been sanded a bit and the marks could have been removed then. Unfortunately, I have no idea of whether the Danish arsenal started it's own serial number range separate from Remingtons or continued where Remington left off.. According to the "Danish Arms and Armour Society" report Remington made 40,000 rifles and 1,800 carbines for the Danish Government. The Danes made "about" 31,000 rifles and 7,000 carbines. Someone in your country may know something about the serial numbering of these rifles and you may be able to trace your rifle through the serial number. I have no idea. Also, here in the USA, the Danish-made rifles are far more common. This is because the Danish government released Remington-made rifles to civilian shooters. This is especially true in 1896 when they started converting rifles to center fire. The Danish authorities determined that the Danish-made rifles were stronger than Remington rifles because of the steel used to manufacture the rifles. The few Remington-made Danish rifles seen here usually have a version of the M1883 sight and in center fire. These were used by civilian shooters and not chambered for the 1867/96 cartridge.
Hope this helps!
Tom
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wendelboe
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Re: M-1867 - #36608 - more info?

Post by wendelboe »

Luckily help every now and then comes in unexpected!

Yestersay a good friend of mine found the ingraving on the block. It was hid behind old dirt and rust - I just hadn't been brave enough to clean in thoroughly:

"Remington & Sons - Ilion, N.Y., USA.
Pat May 3rd - Nov 15th 1864 - April 17th 1888."


http://www.smartcms.dk/user/uhrenholt/m ... ton-nr.jpg

This leave, that the rifle actually was made in Ilion, but what does the two last dates indicate?

Thanks

Hans
tjack
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Re: M-1867 - #36608 - more info?

Post by tjack »

Hans,
These are dates related to various patents used in the manufacture of the rolling block. The last date actually reads "1866". I have no idea what parts of the rolling block mechanism these dates refer to.
Tom
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Re: M-1867 - #36608 - more info?

Post by rudybolla »

It is great to see one of these rifles that actually saw some "action" - even if the action was shooting game or as a conversion aid!. :mrgreen: And that is one beat-up M67. And it has a fired case fused inside. Wonder what (who) this missionary shot at last?
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