Rolling Block Pisstols Model 1871, 1891,& 1901

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bcowern
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Joined: Tue May 01, 2012 1:16 pm
Location: British Columbia

Rolling Block Pisstols Model 1871, 1891,& 1901

Post by bcowern »

Does anybody know if, and can provide a reference that states that the frames of the Remington Rolling Block Pistol frames of the Model 1871, Model 1891, or Model 1901 were only manufactured by E. Remington & Sons?

Does anybody know if and can provide a reference that states that the pistol frames marked with the "P" and "S" government inspector marks were only manufactured by E.Remington & Sons, or know when the "P" and "S" were applied to the frames?

Thank you for your consideration.

Regards,
bcowern
dieNusse1
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Re: Rolling Block Pisstols Model 1871, 1891,& 1901

Post by dieNusse1 »

I'm commenting in an area I don't know much about but anyway ---

It's my understanding that the E. Remington & Sons company went broke and was reorganized as the Remington Arms Company in 1888.

So that should mean that the Model 1891 and Model 1901 are stamped Remington Arms Co rather than E. Remington & Sons. How that affects the status of the"P" and "S" stamping I don't know.
aardq
Posts: 439
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:02 pm

Re: Rolling Block Pisstols Model 1871, 1891,& 1901

Post by aardq »

Hello bcowern,

The following info comes from the "bible" on RB pistols, [i]Remington Rolling Block Pistols,[/i] by Jerry Landskron. As the above pointed out, the name change occurred in 1888, and any guns made in and after that year were marked, "Remington Arms." There is a Model of 1887, named because it first appeared in a Rem agent's 1887 catalog. The barrel has the Rem Arms marking. The same factory made all the RB pistols and rifles, just the name marking changed when the company changed hands and names. Therefore, E Remington & Sons made guns only before 1887, and Rem Arms made guns after 1887.

Here comes the "but." Remington Arms was known to use up left over stock from E R&S, so it is possible that some 1891 and 1901 pistols were made using E R&S barrels. This is covered on page 204 of Landskron's book on the RB pistols.

The P and S marks were stamped by the US inspector when the pistol passed inspection. He also talks about the proof marks on these guns on page 215, and he ascribes to the theory that Rem Arms some how acquired former military pistols, and used the frames to make the 1901 models. Thus the frames were made for a US contract, and thus were made by E R&S. All the barrels for the 91 and 01 models were made for those guns, buy Rem Arms.

He notes several times that the commercial models never had any inspectors marks because they weren't for the US, and thus can't be dated.

Hope that this has helped.

Good luck,
Daniel
bcowern
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Location: British Columbia

Re: Rolling Block Pisstols Model 1871, 1891,& 1901

Post by bcowern »

Daniel,

Thank you for your very informative reply. It is much appreciated.

You wrote "the commercial models never had any inspectors marks because they weren't for the US, and thus can't be dated."

How does the presence of the "P" and "S" inspector marks date the rolling block pistols?

Does your reference state if the pistol frames that had the "P" and "S" inspector marks were manufactured only by E R&S?

I am assuming that the US Government stopped inspecting the Model 1871 Army frames by 1888.

Does you have a reference for when the US Government ceased to acquire or inspect the Remington Model 1871 pistols?

Regards,
Brad
aardq
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Re: Rolling Block Pisstols Model 1871, 1891,& 1901

Post by aardq »

Hi Brad,

Is your pistol Army or Navy? It can make a difference. All my info comes from the RB Pistol book by Jerry Landskron.

My comment on "can't be dated" was bad phrasing. The US RB pistols were all made in a short time frame (see below), and the commercial frames can't be dated, as far as I can tell from the book other, than in general terms of the model designation.

The inspector's marks only indicate that the frame was US inspected, and thus a military model. Again poor phrasing on my part.

Yes, all inspected frames were by ER&S. 6,358 Navy pistols were made, or re-made by 1875. All 5,000 Army pistols were made in 1871 - 1872. Commercial model manufacturing dates are unknown.

All models made after 1888 were probably modifications to earlier made guns, but the book isn't clear on this, so these models may have newly made frames. The book states the years a post 1888 model was made, but doesn't state if the frames were newly made, or a re-make of an earlier gun. Obviously if the frame has inspector's marks it is a re-make.

The book doesn't clarify if the 1887 Models (or later models) had new barrels, or if exiting, unmarked barrels were used and marked RAC.

That should answer your questions.
bcowern
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue May 01, 2012 1:16 pm
Location: British Columbia

Re: Rolling Block Pisstols Model 1871, 1891,& 1901

Post by bcowern »

Daniel,

Again, thanks for your informative reply. It does answer my questions

I have been in touch with the RCMP technical division in regards to importing a Remington Rolling Block Pistol as a Prescribed Antique Firearm, which here in Canada must be manufactured prior to 1898 to be classed as an antique.

The pistol in question is a target pistol, with a custom barrel that is not marked Remington Arms, on a “P” and “S” inspected frame. The RCMP claim a “P” and “S” inspected frame cannot for certain be dated as pre-1898, since they were used on rolling block pistols made by RAC after 1897.

So far, the RCMP will only recognize the Model 1871 Army Pistols as antique since that model was out of production by 1888. Model 1891 and 1901 pistols were made past 1897, and since there are no factory records on these pistols, the RCMP say they are unable to be certain that the frames were made prior to 1898.

Wish I had a access to a copy of Landskron’s book as it sounds like it is a good solid reference that “P” and “S” inspected pistol frames were manufactured before 1898.

Does the BATF classify all Model 1891 and 1901 Remington RB pistols as Curio & Relic or are the ones with “P” & “S” frames classed as Antique?

Regards
aardq
Posts: 439
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:02 pm

Re: Rolling Block Pisstols Model 1871, 1891,& 1901

Post by aardq »

Hello again Brad,

As far as I know, the ATF classifies the RBs by the model. So an 1891 is an antique, and the 1901 would be a Modern gun. From what you say, as far as the RCMP is concerned, the gun must be made before 1898. If they go by the frame date, then all RBs with inspectors marks were made before 1875. The frames of some were used to make the 1901 model, but the frame was made no later than 1875. There may be no factory records, but there are letters and telegrams between Rem and the US military. The Navy RBs were made in or before 1870, and the Army models were made in or before 1875.

A problem you might run into is the "manufacturing date". The 1901 was "made" in 1901, but actually, the gun was assembled in 1901 on a frame that was manufactured prior to 1875. The terms made, and manufactured are not interchangeable.

Another thing that some countries go by is the availability of ammo. Example: in the UK, an 1875 Rem revolver is acceptable in 44 rem caliber. It is unacceptable if in 44-40, or 45 caliber. I don't know if something similar applies in Canada.

PM me your mailing address and I'l be glad to send you copies of pages in the book on these models. daniel@littlefire48.com

Unfortunately, you are probably dealing with bureaucrats who know nothing about guns, and rely on the internet, or out of date books, or "some guy" for their "knowledge."

The bottom line is that no inspected RBs were manufactured after 1875.

Daniel
aardq
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Re: Rolling Block Pisstols Model 1871, 1891,& 1901

Post by aardq »

Hi Brad,

Now ghat I think about it for a few minutes, the ATF says that the frame is the firearm. Therefore, in the US, any inspected RB would have a frame that was made no later than 1875, regardless what the model date might be. It would be interesting, and if I were trying to get an inspector marked 1901 into the US, I would first check with the ATF to see what their designation was. If they didn't have an official designation, then I would write the ATF in Washington and ask for an official determination.

I'll see if I can find a list, or an ATF designation on the 1901. If they have one, and consider it to be an antique, I'll get a copy for you. If the ATF considers it an antique, the RCMP might accept the ATF designation.

Daniel
bcowern
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Joined: Tue May 01, 2012 1:16 pm
Location: British Columbia

Re: Rolling Block Pisstols Model 1871, 1891,& 1901

Post by bcowern »

Hi Daniel,

Thanks for your replies.

PM sent.
aardq
Posts: 439
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:02 pm

Re: Rolling Block Pisstols Model 1871, 1891,& 1901

Post by aardq »

Hello all,

I'll finish this discussion on the board where it started. Brad and I have exchanged several e-mail, and hopefully he now has the into to convince the RCMP that the gun he wants is a legal antique.

My sole source for info was the "Remington Rolling Block Pistols", by Jerry Landskron. The bottom line is that all Rem RB pistols were made no later than 1876. The Army models, both military and civilian were all made in 1871-72. The over run from the Army contract, and also returned military frames were used by Rem over the next 30 years to assemble the 1887, 1891, and 1901 army style pistols.

The same with the Navy models, except that the Navy models were made in 1865 - 1876, All navy style commercial models of 1887, 1891, and 1901 were assembled on the frames of the the over runs and returned frames of the original frames.

As an additional note, according to Landskron, there were about twice as many Navies made as Armies.

Daniel
admin
Site Admin
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Re: Rolling Block Pisstols Model 1871, 1891,& 1901

Post by admin »

Please let us know the how this resolves in the end.
I've had some interesting experiences importing firearms FROM Canada and back and forth from the UK.
suspect someone here can remember the name of the antique dealer that lives in Canada, I'm sure he's in one of the dealer links on the web page. He probably would be a wealth of knowledge on this and if necessary help?
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